The Ultimate Post on Why Long-Term Monogamy Doesn’t Work
Why Long-Term Monogamy Doesn’t Work In 21st Century America
Preface 1: If you’ve been directed here via a link, that means a point you brought up has been directly answered in this post. Hopefully, the person providing the link has also provided you with the section number so you can find the answer to your point quickly and easily. This is why the sections are numbered.
Preface 2: For those of you have followed my past posts on marriage and monogamy, some of this (though not all) will be repeat. This is because I’m trying to be as comprehensive as possible here.
What follows is my contention that long-term monogamy (including traditional marriage) doesn’t work. This conclusion is based on facts, statistics, observations, my own experiences, and the experiences of literally hundreds of people I have known, dated, worked with, or communicated with, over the course of my 37 year life. I will include all of those items here, as well as the responses to common objections people bring up when I postulate these things.
I tend to get the exact same questions and objections over and over and over again whenever I talk about this, so this will be the one big post that contains everything, so instead of repeating myself, I (and others) can just link to it in the future.
First, we must define a few things for purposes of this discussion.
I am talking about monogamy. Monogamy, as defined in this discussion, means you promise the one woman you are with to not have ANY sexual contact with ANY other people, and she promises the same to you. And, it means you both actually DON’T have any physical sexual contact with any other people.
MLTR’s, OLTR’s, secret girlfriends, cheating behind someone’s back, and extramarital affairs are all NOT monogamy. Monogamy could include flirting with other people, but not actually touching them in a sexual manner.
I am also talking about “long-term” monogamy. For purposes of this discussion the phrase “long-term” means longer than 3 years. For reasons we are about to discuss, it’s actually not tough to have a great monogamous LTR that lasts less than 3 years. Longer than 3 years, then we get into the zone where monogamy “doesn’t work”. More on this in a minute, but remember that “long-term” means 3 years or longer.
I am also talking about the United States (and perhaps England as well). I am NOT talking about any other countries. A traditional marriage in one country is very different than a traditional marriage in another. I’m talking about the United States here. I do fully acknowledge that long-term monogamy and/or marriage does work in some other countries.
I am also talking about this era. For purposes of this discussion, “this era” means after 1990. I am NOT talking about anyone who got married in the 1960’s, for example. Only people married after 1990. I am certainly talking about people getting married now, or who want to get married (or long-term monogamous) in the next 10 years or so. I fully acknowledge that that long-term marriage (somewhat) “worked” in other eras, where the law and social stigmas were quite different than today. But even then, the monogamous nature of these marriages were questionable. More on this in a minute.
THERE ARE ODD EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE. Whenever I postulate a fact, survey, statistic, or observation, there are always going to be odd exceptions. “Well, I knew this one couple once where…”. There are odd exceptions to every rule. Duh. The exceptions prove the rule.
Let me make clear what I am NOT against:
1. Monogamous LTR’s that last less than 3 years. I have a personal bias against ANY monogamy that lasts past about 2 months or so, but I do admit that some wonderful short-term monogamous relationships can be had. Great LTR’s that are 3 years or less CAN work. But even then, you’d better really, really know what you’re doing.
2. Marriages that are temporary. If you want to get married, and know that most likely your marriage will end someday, we have no disagreement. Take the proper precautions and go for it. (If instead you think you’ll never get divorced and/or never experience an affair because “you’re different”, now we disagree, read on.)
3. Open marriages or open relationships. I completely endorse long-term marriages and long-term relationships where one or both partners are allowed to have occasional meaningless sex with someone else outside the relationship, within certain ground rules set by the partners. That DOES create long-term happiness, provided both people have a reasonably idea of what they’re doing. (Long-term monogamous relationships generally don’t create long-term happiness even IF both people know what they’re doing.)
Now, here are the reasons long-term monogamy doesn’t work, in the United States, in this era.
Human beings were never biologically designed to be monogamous for long stretches. Less than 7% of the animals on the planet Earth are actually designed to be lifetime monogamous, and not only are humans not in that 7%, they aren’t even close. Even human’s biological “relatives” (primates) are no where near lifetime monogamous.
This includes both men AND women, but in different ways. I shall describe each.
Women are designed to be short-term monogamous, but not long-term monogamous. As every man who’s had a relationship with a woman knows, women get BORED. Sometimes this happens within 3 months, sometimes it doesn’t happen for 7 years (the famous “Seven year itch”). Women are biologically wired to get bored with the man they are with within 2 to 3 years, sometimes much sooner. This boredom factor is accelerated the more time she spends with the man. I.E., all other things being equal, a woman is going to get bored with a man faster if she lives with him, then if she only sees him twice a week.
Women are designed to be selective in choosing their men, dating back to cavemen times (humans have the same brains and bodies of cavemen 200,000 years ago, more or less). They had to be sure to pick a man who would stick around and survive long enough to raise her children. So today, in the presence of CERTAIN men, a women’s brain will actually produce hormones that will excite her attraction. Much writing has been done on this and I’m not going to repeat it all here (I’m not a doctor or anthropologist anyway).
The problem is that over time, this hormone production begins to wane. Over time, the woman will actually, physically be less attracted to the same man. On top of this, she will also emotionally get bored with him at the same time. Society is FULL of married women who say “I love my husband, but I’m so BORED with him!”. This is a prime factor in the fact that 82% of all divorce is initiated by the woman (more on this statistic later).
On average, a woman’s sex drive for her man will begin to wane at the 2 year mark, especially if she lives with him, and this gets worse and worse over time. Try this experiment:
1. Take 5 married men from your life that you know. They can be of any age, personality, or background. The only requirement is that they must have been married for at least FOUR years.
2. Take each one out for drinks, individually, just you and him, far away from his wife and any other male or female friends. Just get enough drinks in him to get him relaxed and truthful, not drunk.
3. Ask him "How often to you and your wife have sex?”
4. Prepare to be depressed as you listen to his answer.
Alternatively, you could just ask him “How happy are you in your marriage?” and listen to THAT answer. Prepare to be enlightened.
This 2 to 3 year boredom period also helps explain why the vast majority of people who talk about that “great LTR they had once” are almost always LTR’s that lasted less than 3 years.
Note also that this is her biology. You’re behavior as her man does not change her biology. Giving her great sex, or “being alpha”, or running “solid relationship game” or “screening” does not change her biology. Nothing will (other than drugs, perhaps).
Now let’s talk about men, where the situation gets even WORSE. While women are designed for some level of monogamy (short-term only), men aren’t designed for monogamy AT ALL. Worse, men are designed to fuck as many women as they can, to spread their seed around and ensure propagation of the species.
If a man is monogamous with a woman even for a few months, he is actually violating every biological urge he’s designed to have. It’s HARD for men to be monogamous, now matter how moral or mature they might be. EVERYBODY knows this. Here is a quote from Dennis Prager, a conservative religious pundit who overwhelmingly supports the concept of traditional marriage:
“Compared to most women’s sexual nature, men’s sexual nature is far closer to that of animals. So what? That is the way he is made. Blame God and nature. Telling your husband to control it is a fine idea. But he already does. Every man who is sexually faithful to his wife already engages in daily heroic self-control. He has married knowing he will have to deny his sexual nature’s desire for variety for the rest of his life.”
Sounds fun doesn’t it? Wow. Sign me up.
So there you have it. Being monogamous AT ALL for a man, and LONG-TERM for a woman, is a direct violation of our bodily and physiological functions.
Common Objection: “We’re not animals! We’re more than just biological urges and chemicals! We are so much more than that! We have intellects and souls and can overcome these things!”
Answer: Correct, but working to overcome your basic biological urges is very difficult. Anyone who has been on a diet, or has tried to overcome an addiction to smoking, drugs, or alcohol, knows exactly how HARD it is to overcome the body’s biological urges. And this is what you are doing EVERY DAY in a long-term monogamous arrangement. Remember, even if you have been married for 15 years, if you or your spouse has affair just ONE TIME, you’re no longer in a monogamous marriage any more.
Romantic love has a time limit. Romantic love generally lasts anywhere from 6 months until about 4 years on the outside. Much research has been done on this in psychology circles. Once two monogamous people marry or move in together, their romantic love slowly starts to transform into a type of family love. Your husband is no longer the attractive hot guy who totally turns you on. He becomes more like a beloved, cared-for family member. This has been compared to “a family member you fuck”.
Talk to any married couple who have been married a LONG time, as in 30+ years, about their marriage. They will always relay two things:
1. They are in love, but not romantically in love. It’s a much more of a familial type of love.
2. They went through huge stretches in their marriage where they weren’t in love AT ALL, but “stuck it out” because of one reason or another (the kids, their religion, what other people would say, etc.)
In this era, when people (usually women, but sometimes men too) sense the romantic love waning, they get the feeling that “something’s wrong” and that they are “with the wrong person”, and then a divorce or affair ensues. “Sticking it out” is not something most people do anymore.
Common Objection: “Marriage isn’t just about romance and love. It’s about a commitment you make to one another. Just because the romantic fire wanes, doesn’t mean two people can overcome that and stay together.”
Answer: This is true, but men need regular sex, regardless of the “romantic mood” his GF/wife is in, or isn’t in. It is VERY difficult for a woman to sexually put out often if she’s not romantically attracted to her man. This means reduced sex, and this means heightened chances for a divorce or affair.
The overall failure rate of marriage is 87%. This is an aggregate of many statistics, all of which are listed further below. “Failure” is defined as one of the three things occurring in a marriage:
1. A divorce.
2. Unsanctioned extramarital affair(s).
3. Both the husband and wife are miserable with each other but “put up” with each other because of expectations from society, or work, or family members, or religion, or some other external reason (many of you have grandparents who fall into this category).
If you get married, there is an 87% percent chance you will either get divorced, experience an affair, or experience a bad marriage that never ends. Marriage has a dismal 13% success rate. Let’s cover each of the three “bad” possibilities.
The national divorce rate is about 50%. This is an overall average. In most major cities, it is closer to 62%. So if you live in a city of a million or more people, odds are the divorce rate you’re looking at is around 62%.
Also, what is commonly called the “divorce rate” is just a comparison between the total number of marriages and the total number of divorces in a given year and given geographic area. When you actually look at statistics on the odds of YOU getting a divorce, the picture looks much worse.
For example, the divorce rate for people living in a city who are under the age of 25 is 91%. NINETY ONE PERCENT! The divorce rates get more specific and saddening from there, but you get the picture.
Common Objection: “I’M different that all those other guys. I’m an alpha! I’ll make it work!”
Answer: You can control your own actions, but you cannot control the actions of the woman you marry. Nor can you stop her from changing her mind or “getting BORED” (which, again, is a biological phenomenon, not one created by external stimuli).
Common Objection: “That divorce rate applies to AFC chodes who don’t screen for great women! I’m going to heavily SCREEN for a woman who will make a great wife and mother!”
Answer: I shall quote Uncle Walker, who said it much better than I ever could:
“I think one of the mistakes that some of you guys make is assuming that screening will fix this problem. Screening assumes that people dont change and that you can guess that years from now your woman wont act like almost every other woman is programmed to act by our society….We can look at (a man with a failed marriage) and say screening. I will respond its every bit as much what he did today as what he did yesterday. “
The woman you marry today is NOT the same woman you will be married to 7 years down the road. Again, do the “ask 5 married guys” experiment above, and you’ll see what I mean.
Common Objection: “Look, often people need a marriage to figure out themselves and to get it right. Lots of people are young and/or stupid when they first get married. So they get divorced, learn more about themselves, and then get a second marriage where they pick the right person, and then things finally click, and work.”
Answer: Wrong. THE DIVORCE RATE FOR SECOND MARRIAGES IS EVEN WORSE THAN THE DIVORCE RATE FOR FIRST MARRIAGES. The divorce rate for first marriages, as I’ve said, is 50%. The divorce rate for second marriages is 68%! That’s right. It’s EVEN WORSE. Why? Because on the second time around, people are even MORE “set in their ways” and often there are stepchildren to mess around with (“stepchildren” is the second most commonly stated cause for divorce), and a host of other reasons (namely, that long-term monogamy doesn’t work).
Also, think about it. If long-term monogamy “worked” everyone would still be married to the 2nd or 3rd person they dated way back in their 20’s. Instead, most people have had NUMEROUS LTR’s that didn’t work out. This includes men who are “alphas”. If long-term monogamy “worked” why is this the case?
It’s not “people figuring themselves out” that is the problem. It’s long-term MONOGAMY that is the problem.
82% percent of all divorces are initiated by the WOMAN. The woman-initiated divorce rate is between 73% and 94% based on varying demographics, coming to an average of 82%. The sources for this statistic are: National Center for Health Statistics, American Law and Economics Review, Divorce Source Research Center, Atlanta, GE, and many others. Feel free to Google and do your own verification.
It’s a fact. Men only initiate the 18% of all divorces. Why?
1. Women “get BORED” (see above).
2. In a divorce, women get free money in the form of alimony, child support, and communal property.
3. In a divorce, women almost always end up with the children (around 91% of the time, I believe), and thus child support as well. Where as men don’t usually get child support or alimony (only 3.3% of divorced men receive alimony).
4. In this era, women actually get “big props” from their female friends and family members for “finally divorcing that guy”. In days gone by, women (and men) were ostracized by society for getting divorced.
So not only do women biologically and emotionally get bored, they are actually REWARDED, financially and societally, by divorcing their husbands.
So saying “I’m a real man who honors marriage, I won’t divorce my wife, ever!” only takes into account YOU. It doesn’t take into account HER. She’s more likely to divorce you than you are to divorce her.
But it get’s even worse…
The smarter a woman is, and/or the more educated she is, the more likely she is to divorce you. The 82% of woman-initiated divorces climbs up to 91% and higher if the woman is college-educated and/or has an above-average IQ. (Same sources as above)
Smart women are what most men “screen” for when looking for a wife! They don’t realize they are increasing the chances of getting a wife who will divorce them! So want to reduce the odds your wife will divorce you? Marry a dumb chick! (Even better, just don’t get married.)
According to surveys, approximately 76% of all divorcers are unilateral decisions. This means one person wants to get a divorce, and the other person doesn’t. Now again, these are surveys, not actual stats on what happens, but it does give you a good idea.
Mix that 76% with the 82% woman-initiated divorce, and what do you get most of the time? The woman wants a divorce, and the man doesn’t.
Think about THAT next time the woman you’re dating demands marriage.
Okay, we’ve talked about divorce. Now lets talk about cheating and infidelity. Remember, if a marriage includes a spouse that is cheating, it’s not a monogamous marriage.
Infidelity rates are between 47% and 78%, depending on the individual study and the area of the country studied (numerous sources for this, Google it and do your own research). This goes for both marriages and monogamous GF/BF type relationships.
If long-term monogamy “worked”, the infidelity rate would be quite low, somewhere around 5% or 10%. At a MINIUM it would be something LESS than 50%.
Also, in 1950’s marriages that are often used as examples of “marriage working”, infidelity, primarily on the part of the man, was quite common. Next time your grandpa is drunk, as him a few questions about it and watch in awe as he starts bragging about the all the pussy he got back in the 1950’s when he was married to grandma, living the “perfect picket-fence 50’s lifestyle”.
Common Objection (usually by women): “Men cheat more than women do! So quit your bitching!”
Answer: This may have been true in the 1950’s, but in this era, every study done on infidelity shows that men and women cheat on their partners about equally. The sexual revolution of the 60’s and feminism of the 70’s changed women’s opinions on dutiful monogamy. The only difference in gender-specific cheating stats is that men generally cheat sooner, and women generally cheat later. (Why? Because men were never designed to be monogamous, and women get BORED. The stats mesh perfectly with how human beings are designed. Of course.)
Now, let’s talk about the third type of marital “failure”…the miserable marriage that people stay in for the good of…whatever (“the kids”, “the money”, “our faith”, “citizenship”, whatever).
I have noticed, and you may have noticed, that many very old people who have been married 30, 40, 50 years or more are not quite as happy as people paint them to be. When you observe them carefully, many of them are quite miserable. They don’t like their spouse, they don’t like their married life. But because of other reasons, they just grit their teeth and stay together until the “bitter end”. And it’s pretty bitter.
Also, when men say “My Grandpa was an alpha and he’s been married for 40 years and he’s happy with his marriage!” or when women blissly say “I want a marriage like my grandparents have! They’ve been married 40 years!”, what both of these people don’t realize is that usually, in this kind of marriage, grandpa is the BOSS. He says jump, and grandma jumps. It is NOT the “50/50 partnership” marriage of “two equals” that people desire in nowadays. Rather it is a marriage with a BOSS and a SUBORDINATE (and sometimes, grandma is the boss and grandpa is the bitch…I’ve seen these types of marriages too).
In this era, people (especially women) want a “50/50” marriage (and we all know what 50/50 means to a woman). People nowadays are not willing to surrender themselves to serfdom in order to maintain a 40-year marriage. People (men and women both) are just to picky and independent now.
Why do we even have monogamy in the first place? Not for the reasons you think. Time for a quick history lesson.
Monogamy was not invented because it’s was compatible with, or even desirable for, the human condition. It was also not invented because the masses wanted it. Instead, it was invented for the following reasons:
1. Thousands of years ago in Babylonian times, it was first invented to by wealthy lords and sultans to keep other men out of their harems. These wealthy men could, of course, fuck all the women they wanted, but their women were not allowed to fuck other men. These sultans made it a criminal offense for other men to fuck one of THEIR wives.
2. This then evolved into true “monogamy” several hundreds of years later, when smart beta males discovered that they were losing all the hot chicks to the alpha males. Up until then, in the days of the Roman Empire, if a married husband wanted to have meaningless sex with a whore or one of his slaves, or whatever, this was totally fine with his wife, even encouraged by his wife if she was tired, not in the mood, etc. Anyway, the smart betas, using religion, specifically the Catholic church during the decline of the Roman Empire, declared it “morally wrong” to have sex with more than one person. The reason they did this was to “lock up” a hot woman to them on a permanent basis. Unlike the sultans of old, these smart betas could only get one woman instead of many, but one was good enough.
3. Monogamy then spread even further out into society. The reason? Governments found it easier to control their vast populations if their citizens submitted to this new concept of “lifetime monogamous marriage”, so government reinforced this concept through laws, taxation, etc.
So monogamy was invented by elite men to lock up their women and to more easily control society. It was not invented because men or women at large wanted it or asked for it.
Women reluctantly went along with this new system because although they had no freedom and were treated like property, the “monogamy” system did at least provide them with security, which women crave.
Women put up with it, up until about 2000 years later, in the 1960’s. American women finally had enough of being slaves to their men, and revolved. The result was the sexual revolution of the 1960’s, and feminism of the 1970’s. Once feminism fully took hold of the female zeitgeist, women decided it was “OK” to have sex outside of marriage, and have sex with whomever they felt like, even if it was multiple men. As an added bonus for men, for the first time since the Roman Empire, men no longer to promise a woman marriage to have sex. It was a pretty good deal for men and women both. Women were finally free, and men were getting laid.
Even better, true feminists of the 1970’s did not demand exclusivity from the men they were with, even if they married them. If a feminist’s FB, BF, or husband wanted to fuck some other chick, that was fine. It was precisely the “ownership mentality” of monogamy that feminists were rebelling against in the first place. These women truly were “liberated”.
This all worked fine until the late 1980’s. Due to a (false) AIDS scare, and due to the sudden resurgence of conservative “traditional family values” during the Reagan era, women started to slowly revert back to their old 1950’s-style monogamy models…sort of. 1950’s monogamous values started to mesh in women’s heads along with 1970’s feminism.
Which brings to the modern American woman of the 2000’s. This strange creature has picked the 2 or 3 aspects of the 1950’s she likes and ignores the rest. She has also picked the 2 or 3 aspects of 1970’s feminism she likes, and ignores the rest. Quite convenient…for her.
In the 1950’s, a wife would have sex with her husband whenever her husband demanded it of her, even if she was not attracted to him, or not in the mood for sex, or mad at him. Also, as I described above, many married men were quietly polyamorous, having discreet affairs that were tolerated by wives and shoved under the rug (JFK was the ultimate example of this).
Under this system of marriage, the divorce rate in the 1950’s and early 1960’s was approximately 13% (divorce rates were calculated very differently back then, so this is general approximation).
In the 1970’s when feminism and “free love” was the rage, it was the opposite. A wife would NOT “put out” whenever her BF/husband wanted, but she often WOULD let her BF/husband go fuck someone else if she wasn’t in the mood. Under THIS system of marriage, the divorce rate doubled from the 50’s to the 70’s, moving from 13% to approximately 28%. Much worse than the 50’s, but still less than a third of all marriages. Most marriages still worked.
Today, generally speaking, a married woman will NOT have sex whenever asked, and will NOT let her husband have sex outside the marriage. She has, conveniently, combined the forced monogamy of the 1950’s with the “don’t tell me what to do!” of the 1970’s. And now, the divorce rate in most cities is around 62%. Now, officially, MOST marriages don’t work. And, of course, 82% of the time SHE is the one doing the divorcing.
And THAT is the system you as a man are signing up for if you get married.
Worse, I have noticed that women today expect monogamy even if she acknowledges the relationship isn’t serious! I don’t know if you guys have run into this, but I certainly have. It’s when you’re dating a woman and she says “Now look, I don’t have time for anything serious in my life right now, I’m too busy with (whatever, her career, her school, her kids, etc) to do that. I want to date you, but I don’t want to get serious! So we AREN’T getting serious and you’re NOT allowed to start falling in love with me! Oh, and by the way, you can’t fuck other women.”
Good girls of the 1950’s and badass feminists of the 1970’s NEVER asked for a relationship like that. It was “serious and monogamous”, or “not serious but open”.
Common Objection: “That’s because in the 1970’s people didn’t have to worry about STD’s! You can't just fuck all the people you want when you’re married or serious with someone nowadays! STD’s!”
Answer: This doesn’t mean your spouse/partner is out having sex with 10 other people all the time. It could be as few as just one other person, every once and a while. Also, without getting into huge statistical detail, if a condom is used correctly, and used 100% of the time, the chances of getting an STD is very low.
Follow-up Objection: “Oh, come on! I can’t trust my partner to always use a condom every time if they have sex with someone else!”
Answer: You’re in a marriage or serious relationship with a person you can’t trust? Oh, really? Then who’s the real idiot here?
Monogamy creates DRAMA. Ever notice that when you’re dating someone, but haven’t had the big “exclusivity talk” yet, everything is wonderful? The time you spend with her is fantastic, 100% of the time. You never argue. She’s perfect! It’s like being in heaven.
Then you have the “exclusivity talk” and become “exclusive”. Ever notice that, suddenly, without warning almost, the drama starts? The nitpicking, the arguing, the jealously, the territorialness…all that crap.
Is this just some odd coincidence? Nope. It’s because in an completely exclusive relationship, both parties think they “own” each other, and thus have the “right” to boss each other around, to ask about where the other person was the other night, what they were doing, who was that person they were with, why didn’t you call me the other day, why didn’t you pick up the phone when I called, etc.
When two people are dating but not monogamous, this ownership dynamic (usually) doesn’t exist (at least not to the degree it does in an LTR), so the chances for drama are far reduced.
Monogamy is a system where two people FORCE each other to adhere to each other’s “rules” (which is really fascinating, since these same two people are supposed to “love” each other and want to make each other “happy”). Violation of said rules leads to arguments and hurt feelings at best, the end of the relationship at worst. Since human beings are individuals, and since no two people are the same, people are going to have differences, and thus rules WILL be violated at some point. Then drama ensues.
When you are not monogamous, there are no rules, and therefore far, far less drama (extensively, extensively field tested, by the way).
Common Objection: “If a man remains an alpha, you can eliminate most of that drama you’re talking about.”
Answer Number One: You can eliminate MOST of the drama. Not all. You can only eliminate ALL drama if the relationship is non-monogamous.
Answer Number Two: Your alpha behavior will only serve you in short-term monogamous LTR’s. In a long-term relationship or marriage, your alpha-ness will not save you (see all the info above).
Everyone knows this, but it bears repeating, because it’s a key issue.
Generally speaking, women’s sex drives decline over time in a long-term LTR or marriage. Men’s sex drives, generally speaking, don’t decline.
Five years into a monogamous live-in LTR or marriage, he will still want to have sex 4 times a week. She won’t.
This is a major problem, for obvious reasons. See above about “women getting BORED” for more info on this.
Common Objection: “Not ALL women are like that! Some women are high-sex-drive forever!”
Answer: Correct. But ALL women say they’ll “always be into sex”, even though most won’t be. And here’s the critical point: YOU DON’T KNOW WHICH CATEGORY SHE IS IN WHEN YOU MARRY HER. You don’t find out which category she’s in until you’re WELL INTO THE MARRIAGE AND IT’S TOO LATE.
My next argument is probably saddest. It really shows how scared and stupid MEN are…women would never tolerate such a system of monogamy, marriage, and divorce, if the roles were reversed.
If you really want to have some fun, try this sometime. Tell a woman the following story.
“A guy and girl are dating and super-duper serious. The guy comes to the woman one day with a piece of paper and says ‘Darling, I love you so much. Will you sign this legally binding contract that states that if I ever break up with you, you will pay me $400 a month for the next five years, and if you don’t you’ll go to prison?’ What do you think that woman would say? Of COURSE she would refuse. Not only that, she’d probably be insulted, WOULDN’T SHE? What if the guy then said “OMG, I can’t believe you! You are so horrible! Don’t you love me? Don’t you want to be with me? Don’t you value this relationship?”
Telling this story really hits home the silliness of women expecting men to marry them under the traditional system. THEY would never agree to a system like that. Then why should WE?
I am convinced that if women made more money then men, and had to pay men child support and alimony when the man left the marriage, things like alimony and child support would be abolished in a heartbeat. Women would never tolerate that shit. They would be out marching in the streets in front of the courthouse. They’d leave work early to vote for the proper politicians. It would get done…alimony, child support, communal property, no-fault divorce…all of that would be gone.
But sadly, men at large in society are either so dumb, so scared, or so locked into tradition, men tolerate it, and pay the price.
There is literally nothing a confident man can get from marriage he cannot get by being unmarried. Literally nothing. This includes:
Changing her last name.
Referring to each other as “husband” and “wife”.
Children (more on this below).
Shared medical insurance (via domestic partnership and various other legal means).
Joint ownership of assets.
…and everything else.
Try to think of anything a confident man can ONLY receive if he’s legally married. Even one thing. You can’t. Thus, he incurs massive risk for zero reward. Of course women do receive something a man doesn’t…free money if the relationship doesn’t work out. Marriage is no longer a sacred union. Marriage today is relationship-insurance for the female.
Common Objection: “There IS one thing a man doesn’t get unless he’s married! Commitment!”
Answer: If this were the 1950’s, that would be correct. But it’s the 21st century. Marriage is no longer a commitment. We live in a society where either person can get divorced for any reason at any time, and get a big pat on the back from friends and family when they do it (and even get PAID to do it if they’re female). And based on the high divorce rates (above), they DO get divorced, quite often. Marriage is no longer a commitment, and hasn’t been for several decades now.
Now let’s talk about having children.
It has been said:
“OK, I agree with everything you’ve said about monogamy and marriage, but what about kids? I want to have children someday. Two parents out fucking everyone in town is no way to raise kids! Kids are best raised by a man and wife, committed to each other, and who live together. So even though you have a point, I’m going to be married anyway (or at least live with her in a committed monogamous relationship), because I want to have kids.”
First, let’s talk about whether or not to have kids at all, then let’s talk about how to properly raise kids, in light of what we’ve discussed regarding long-term monogamy’s failure rate.
Because of the law today, and of society’s expectations today, a man SHOULD NOT have children unless he meets ALL of the following four criteria:
1. He fully understands the financial ramifications of doing so. This means hundreds of dollars a month for the next 20 years out of his wallet, even after he breaks up with the mother, with horrible consequences if he ever gets late or doesn’t pay, including the revoking of his driver’s license, garnishments, and actual jail time (yes, men have actually gone to jail for not paying child support).
2. He fully understands the fact that 20% to 60% of his freedom will vanish from his life, and stay gone, for the next 20 years or so. (Again, regardless if it ever “works out” with the mother of the child.)
3. He can afford children. That means he has regular income, and makes more money every month than he already needs to pay his own bills. He has carefully budgeted his income and expenses and has determined rationally, and mathematically that he is able to finically support a child (or children).
4. Despite fully understanding the above three items, he is still 100% desirous to have children, and is going into the situation fully informed with both eyes open.
(I, personally, did all four of the above things before I had my two children. I did the research, understood what the ramifications were, earned enough money, budgeted, and then I was ready. My children were not accidents that I “took responsibility for” and/or “tried to make work”. Both of my children were planned events.)
Some dipshit who has some girl he’s been seeing for 2 months come to him and say “Oops! I’m pregnant!” is NOT what I’m taking about here. Too many men make the “decision” to have children AFTER some chick they’ve been boinking has already told them she’s pregnant. The topic of birth control is beyond the scope of this discussion, but realize that many men who say they are “choosing” or have “chosen” to have kids, really have NOT “chosen” at all. The woman chose, and they went along with it.
Alright, so let’s say you’ve met all four of the criteria above, and you still want to have kids.
Saying a man and wife who live together is the best way to raise children IS accurate. I fully, 100% agree with this, and the studies also verify this.
However, living under the same roof with the woman you love, raising your children:
Does not mean you must live together full time, all the time (though that is preferable).
Does not mean you must be legally married.
Does not mean you must be monogamous.
Does not mean you must jointly own finances or assets.
There is no reason you cannot raise fully healthy children if you live with a woman in an discreet OLTR (Open Long Term Relationship), where you and/or the woman can have discreet meaningless sex with other people (operating under certain ground rules) if the need arises in either one of you. This does not mean you and your “wife equivalent” are out fucking everyone in town, or that you are parading various women in front of your children, or that you’re having threesomes in your bedroom while your kids are in the next room. I said a discreet OLTR, not a typical OLTR, and not an MLTR. There are no stats on this, but I have personally seen more than one couple operate this way and it does work. They are happy, and their children are happy.
Common Objection: “How do you KNOW that will work? How many people have field tested this? Are there any stats on this working?”
Answer: Due to societal programming, very few people have tried this system. So no, there are no large amounts of data on whether or not this “works”. But what are you comparing this system to? The answer is you’re comparing this system to long-term monogamy, which only has a 13% success rate (see above). How much worse can the discreet OLTR system of raising children actually BE? Again, remember what you are comparing things to when making an argument like that.
Now, were going to address all the various objections that are commonly given that we haven’t covered yet.
Objection: “What about having someone care for you in your old age?”
Answer: If you’ve already read the rest of this, you know the answer already. The divorce rate is around 60% in most major cities. The odds are high that the person you marry will be divorced from you by the time you hit your old age, so marriage as a means of elder care is not a very smart move.
As much as men talk about it being a woman’s job to look hot and put out, it is YOUR job as a man is to make good money, and invest it wisely. In my opinion, every man should have at least a million dollars saved by the time he hits is mid 50’s, and I’m being nice when I say only a million. Your money will take care of you well in your old age, married or not.
You have FAR more control over how much money you will have as an old man then you have over whether or not some woman will still be with you by then.
Objection: “I want to be long-term monogamous because I don’t want to worry about STD’s.”
Answer: It’s true that monogamy does provide a lower risk of STD’s than a poly lifestyle, but you’re forgetting about one thing: as stated above, the infidelity rate is very high. If your partner has sex with someone else while you’re “monogamous”, you are at risk for STD’s. Many people have gotten STD’s from their “monogamous” partners. I’ve seen this happen to other people more than once. The need for STD protection might be reduced in a monogamous relationship, but not removed.
Also, the STD issue does not remove anything we’ve discussed here about the mountains of other risks a man incurs if he gets married, or the drama and lack of freedom he experiences if he’s monogamous.
Objection: “Not getting married and not having kids is selfish. I don’t want to be selfish forever.”
Answer: Why do you want to have kids? Because YOU want to have them. That’s SELFISH. Let’s be real here. You don’t want to get married or have kids because you want to help the world. C’mon. You want to get married and/or have kids because YOU want to do these things, for whatever reasons. THAT’S SELFISH.
This “selfish” stuff is actually traditional and religious programming in your head that you should reframe and remove, as soon as possible.
This gets into a much bigger topic, but ALL human action is selfish, it’s only a question of rational selfishness or irrational selfishness. Read up on some Ayn Rand or Robert Ringer.
Objection: “Having sex with multiple people is immature. Eventually you need to grow up.”
Answer: Ah, you’re HALF right. Let me re-state for you. Having sex with multiple partners in a reckless fashion is immature. Having sex with multiple partners in a methodical, adult way is not. For example, things like having rampant sex with hundreds of complete strangers is immature. And having sex with lots of people with no birth control or STD projection is immature. But I endorse none of these things. I endorse having sex with multiple partners after a certain amount of screening these potential partners, then using all appropriate STD and birth control protection, and not making any rash decisions regarding long-term relationships, commitment, children, or finances.
If you STILL think monogamy is more “mature”, then this is a purely emotional argument, based on societal programming. You have no facts to back this up. No one has ever explained, logically and rationally, why having sex with two or more people is a sign of immaturity, or why having sex with only one person is a sign of maturity.
Objection: “I once had a monogamous LTR and it was GREAT!”
Answer: Did it last longer than 3 years?
Objection: “Well, MY marriage or LTR isn’t confining or filled with drama. Mine’s different!”
Answer: Is it under 3 years so far?
But OK, OK, let’s get more specific. If you’re in a long-term monogamous relationship you have a number of “rules” that you must follow from your GF/wife regarding your behavior whenever in the presence of the opposite sex. Including, but not limited to, hanging out with them, when and where to touch them, what topics you can bring up to them, how to dance with them, when/if/how you flirt with them, and on, and on, and on.
If you are monogamous, I don’t care how you structure the monogamy, you are confined, and you are not free. She owns your balls…at least to SOME degree.
But it gets even worse than that…
In a monogamous relationship/marriage, your GF/wife has the ability to REMOVE sex out of your life whenever they want. All they have to do is say “no”, and it’s time to either sit there with blue balls or jerk off…because you’re not allowed to have sex with anyone else. This is one of the big things that throw men for a loop once they’ve been married for about two years. It’s not that you can only fuck one woman the rest of your life (that alone might actually be OK), it’s the fact that she can REMOVE sex from your life completely if she chooses to. And if you do anything she doesn’t like, she’s likely to, eventually. And the stats bear this out.
Objection, usually from women: “Oh my God. Is sex really that important?”
Objection: “Why do I have to choose? Why can’t I have it both ways? Why can’t I have it ALL?”
Answer: This is a non sequitur. How can you be monogamous and not be monogamous? You can’t do it. You ARE or you AREN’T.
Also, you may be implying having a “monogamous” relationship and then having secret affairs, which I do NOT endorse AT ALL. (I personally have never cheated on a woman in my entire life once I committed to exclusivity with her.)
Remember back in the late 80’s and early 90’s when women started to want to “have it all”? “I want to be a high-powered career woman AND be a great supermom AND be physically fit!!!” Remember that? How well did that work out? According to surveys, women are the most unhappy they’ve been in decades. Society had to quietly and gently tell women that this “have it all” shit wasn’t possible. You do ONE THING WELL, the rest you do OK (hopefully).
Having a “monogamous” relationship/marriage while being a “player” is just as silly. And just as destructive.
Objection: “Oh, you’re just pissed about all of this because you got divorced. You’re jaded and biased now. Just because you fucked up doesn’t mean that WE will. You’re just pissed off because you don’t know how to be monogamous and make it work.”
Answer: Realize that if this is your first thought after I provide you with these facts, that means you have nothing to respond with other than to try to find fault with me personally. This is because deep down, you know I’m right.
That being said, it is fair for me to relay my relationship history. I have had three monogamous relationships in my life, and all three were, for the most part, good. The first one was in my early 20’s. I was dating a woman for about a year, completely exclusively. It was a fun relationship and I have nothing but fond memories about it. There was a little drama from her occasionally, but no big deal.
My second was when I was married in my mid-twenties. The woman I marred already had a 5 year-old son, who became my son, and we had a second child shortly after, my daughter. My marriage lasted 9 years, the first 7 of which were good. I loved her and she loved me. I never cheated on her, and to my knowledge neither did she.
Like most American wives, she started backing off on the sex about a year into the marriage, and within 3 years I had usually had to “fight her” for sex. We also tended to argue about how the best way to raise the kids was, and financial issues (again, mostly related to the kids). Other than these items, our marriage was quite good and I was more or less happy.
It deteriorated in the 7th year, ending in the 9th. Our divorce was not a “horrible” divorce. It was pretty standard. We never argued over the kids or visitation, just over money. We eventually came to an agreement that both of us feel pretty good about. That was 3 years ago as of this writing, and we no longer argue, ever. I bear no ill will toward my ex-wife. On the contrary, the more I’ve learned about women, relationships, marriage, and divorce, the more I realize she wasn’t actually doing anything wrong, she was just acting like all women act in the modern era. How could I “blame” her for that? I was the one dumb enough to get married in the first place. I have only myself to blame.
And I did get two fantastic children out of the deal, which is what I always wanted. I see my children often, as in weekly.
My third monogamous relationship came about a year after my divorce. It only lasted about 4 or 5 months, and it was perfect in every way. We were totally in love, and we fit each other hand-in-glove. It ended when she had to move away for work. It was great while it lasted, but I know a big reason for that was because it only lasted 5 months or so. We never got anywhere near the 3 year-mark, where likely she would have started getting BORED.
So that’s my “monogamous relationship history”. Note I have had MANY non-monogamous relationships where I have had virtually zero problems, zero drama, zero restrictions on my freedom, and zero risk to my finances. They all been fantastic. Every. Single. One.
Now, let me re-iterate. NONE of my personal history, positive or negative, changes the facts I’ve been describing.
Objection: “I can’t stand the thought of my GF/BF/spouse having sex with another guy/girl!”
Answer: Jealousy is a big topic, and beyond the scope of this discussion. I will say that I do understand…we’ve all felt jealous at one time or another. But understand that jealousy comes from three places: 1) bullcrap societal programming, 2) territorial caveman crap in your DNA that no longer has any relevance in the modern world, and 3) your own personal insecurities and self-esteem issues, likely gained from negative childhood experiences.
Guess what? All three of these things are BAD. Bad, bad, bad. All three of these things are hurting you, not only in your relationships but in other areas of your life as well. All three of these things you must work on and solve. Seek counseling if you need to. But don’t assume just because you feel something its because you’re doing something wrong. Sometimes it is. But often it isn’t.
Objection: “I’m an Alpha! I can still be long-term monogamous and be an Alpha!”
Answer: No, you can’t. It is NOT POSSIBLE to be fully alpha once you have promised monogamy to a woman. NOT. POSSIBLE.
That being said, let me tell you what IS possible:
1. You CAN remain alpha (to a degree) by fucking other women behind her back. This is not a system I recommend, but I know many men who do this. And yeah, they’re pretty alpha.
2. You CAN retain alpha-like behaviors in the other aspects of the relationship outside of the monogamy angle. Things like not taking her shit, not kissing her ass, not exhibiting jealousy, not spending a lot of money on her, etc. However, you are still going beta yourself the INSTANT you promise to not get sexual with other women. It’s unavoidable.
This is because once you promise monogamy to a woman, you give her the automatic power to:
1. Completely remove sex from your life any time she disapproves of your behavior, as I already stated above. (You say something mean to her sister, so she doesn’t fuck you, and you can’t fuck anyone else, so sex has been removed from your life, at least temporarily. Time to go jerk off to porn).
2. Ask you constantly the why you were with other women, and the nature of your relationship with other women you spend time with. As annoying and silly as this jealousy is, She HAS THE RIGHT to ask these questions because YOU promised her monogamy.
3. Give you drama. Once you promise monogamy, she believes, often correctly, that she’s “got you” and she can give you all kinds of drama and you will STILL STAY with her (and, let me say again, she’s usually RIGHT about this). Yes, can exhibit alpha-like behaviors when dealing with this drama, but she’s is still in a position to give it to you. And she will again and again.
Being 100% alpha and monogamous is mutually exclusive. If you disagree, then answer this specific question: How can you maintain the relationship AND be an alpha when she's angry with you, absolutely refuses sex, and you can’t go fuck anyone else? (And if your answer is “I’d dump her ass!”, then you’ve just proven my entire point…your monogamy FAILED.)
Objection (or rather, a question): “OK, OK, you’ve converted me. I have seen the light. You’re right. But I still…um…kinda want to get married. Is there any way I can get married and still avoid these pitfalls?”
Answer: I’ve you’ve read everything above, you know it’s silly for a man to get legally married, so I stand my ground in recommending against it.
However, if you just can’t control yourself and must get married, make sure you do the following three things:
1. Spend some serious money on a divorce attorney and write up a GOOD, SOLID prenup, and have her sign it. Make sure she signs it well more than six months before the wedding, preferably a year (to prevent her from later saying she was “under duress”), and make sure she signs it while being witnessed by a judge (to prevent her from saying later that she “didn’t understand what she was signing”, since the judge will literally explain every sentence to her, and then sign off on it himself).
2. Do NOT promise her monogamy. At best, promise her “conditional monogamy”, where you are monogamous as long as she behaves a certain way. But don’t promise that you’ll be monogamous “no matter what”. Make sure this promise is in writing, with both of your signatures, and witnessed by a judge (so later she can’t come back with “I never said you could fuck other women!”)
3. Know, in your mind and in your heart, that most likely, this marriage will not last forever. Most likely, despite your love and best efforts, this woman will divorce you some day. Make sure you remember this whenever you make any long-term plans (like investing, purchasing homes, retirement, etc.)
If you do these things, you remove a woman’s two greatest weapons away from her. 1) The “do what I say or I’ll divorce you and take half your money” weapon, and 2) The “do what I say or you’re not getting any tonight!” weapon.
I still would avoid all of this and just not get long-term monogamous, but if you must get married, that’s how to do it.
And, of course, the final objection, my favorite of them all, and by far the most common one: “I can make it work because I’M DIFFERENT.”
Answer: That’s exactly what the other 87% said. They all thought they were different too.
But I’ll be more specific. Let’s talk a minute about the 13% of people who do actually make it work.
Speaking VERY generally, there are three kinds of people. Independent, interdependent, and dependent.
Independent people are strong, high-maintenance, picky people who like everything in their life exactly the way they like it. If anything is off, they get unhappy real quick. (I am one of these people) They represent somewhere between 15% and 25% of the population.
Interdependent people are somewhat capable people who are only picky about one or two areas in their life. As long as those one or two areas are going smoothly, the rest of their life they care little about. They’re reasonably flexible and are easily led. They represent about 45% of the population.
Dependent people are fucked up people who need counseling. Losers, drug addicts, people with uncontrollable tempers, alcoholics, sex addicts, violent people, people who are massively overweight, the man who beats his wife, the wife who gets beat and always defends her husband, these are all examples of dependent people. They’re people with “issues”, completely dependent on other people or substances for validation of one kind or another (some of these people can, with counseling and a lot of work, move out of the dependent category and become independent or interdependent people…but most are this way permanently, as a way of life). Represents about 20% of the population, give or take.
When does traditional marriage have shot at working?
When an INTERDEPENDENT person marries and ANOTHER INTERDEPENDENT person.
Then, they have a real shot. The system of lifetime, monogamous, traditional marriage was designed for low-maintenance, simple, non-fucked-up, interdependent people. (But even THESE people can still get divorced…they just are the ones who have a decent shot at it.)
Now yes, that means dependent people and independent people are, generally speaking, pretty much screwed if they want a lifetime traditional marriage in the modern era. Look, I’m sorry. But that’s the reality.
If any other marital combination other than the interdependent/interdependent occurs, the marriage WILL fail. We’ve all seen examples of this.
If two dependent people marry (as is often the case) the marriage will be horrible, and usually quite short.
If an interdependent person marries a dependent person, the marriage will be a shitload of work while the interdependent person hangs in there to “try to make it work”, before it finally crashes and burns.
If an interdependent person marries an independent person (a very common situation, probably the most typical), the marriage will be GREAT…at least for a while. The marriage may last well past seven or eight years, even longer!…but at some point, the independent person will feel too stifled and the interdependent person will get too resentful, and they will drift apart. Then comes the divorce or affairs.
If, god forbid, two independent people marry (sometimes happens but not often), the marriage will have a very stale, almost antiseptic feel to it. They will both have all kinds of “ground rules” to the relationship. They’ll seem fine...until the atom bombs go off. We all know how women love to follow specific, agreed-upon ground rules in relationships, don’t we? Anyway, this particular combination has the ugliest, must brutal divorces.
And finally, yes, if two interdependent people marry, and work really hard, and don’t experience any calamities (like major financial trouble, or the death of one of their children, etc), then yes, they can be married happily ever after just like in Disney fairy tales.
How often does that happen? More importantly, are YOU interdependent? Think on this. And don’t bullshit yourself.
It’s your life, not mine. Do whatever you want. Just realize we live in a cause and effect universe, and the best way to predict effect is by studying probability and reality. Your feelings, your religion, your upbringing, your parents, your fantasies, your biological desires for children or security, your desire to conform and look good for others…none of these things change the hard facts and realities of the society and era in which you currently live. I wish it did.